Chris : "Enneads are mentioned in Sahure and Neferirkare’s reigns"
Are the gods selected for the two Enneads static or do they change with time and beliefs?
The concept of a nine god and an eleven god ennead may be even older.
Here we see in Djoser's underground tombs two faience walls showing djeds holding up the sky.
There are 9 djeds in one and 11 djeds in the other.
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Alex : " How was it pictographically pictured?
There is this representation of the northern sky in Seti's tomb, but not all ceilings show the 11 and 9 gods and the panels:
Utt 509
I ascend to the sky among the Imperishable Stars, . . . I sit on this throne of mine, the faces of which are those of lions, and its feet are the hooves of the Great Wild Bull . . . they will find m
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Ancient Egypt
Alex : "Is there any reliable evidence that Lesser Ennead could contain 11 deities?"
It seems fairly explicit in PT 219 p177 O Great Ennead and p178 O Lesser Ennead
The 9 Gods of the Great Ennead are listed here as :
Atum, Shu, Tefenut, Geb, Nut, Isis, Seth, Nepthys, Thoth
(Horus is the living king)
The Lesser Ennead is listed here as 11 regional spirits of Osiris who are Dwe
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Alex : "There are three puzzling points regarding the Bent pyramid:
1. Why did the builders change the angle of slope (due to structural problems or for geometric reasons)? The key point here is the reason for the presence of a dislocation in the N. corridor."
As no-one has answered your questions I will attempt the first one !
The plan for the two slopes in the Bent Pyramid was
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
I agree with your comments, there is little consistency.
Meskhetiu should of course be tethered to the NCP but there is nothing there !
In the Pediamenopet picture, what do you suppose are the two circles on the cord with dots in their centres ?
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Ancient Egypt
The author shows a 19th dynasty scene from the ramesseum :
and writes : "Thuban lies between the two Ursa asterisms in the sky and they may have been used as indicators to help identify which star in the sky was Thuban. An alignment of the two stars (from each asterism ?) near the handle of the Big Dipper pointing towards Ursa Minor indeed runs past Thuban"
The triangular spik
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
There is not any particular evidence that the trial shafts were used this way, nor any similar precedents.
In this case it is another theory about the aligning of pyramids to join many other sound theories.
I think the idea of aligning to the celestial pole is probably more of a modern idea.
I have no doubt the AE could have aligned very accurately to the ncp if that was their intention.
Th
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Ancient Egypt
Yes, I agree with what you wrote.
The problem was that Dorner show a second baseline of 360c at 75cm above the 362 base line.
In fact I am still not sure what it represents.
It is labelled 'Base level of inner pyramid'
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Hi Alex
"We can conclude that height of the pavement in NW corner is 26cm"
Thanks for the clarification of the two base levels and the relevant section from Dorner's text.
On looking again at the diagrams I do agree that the depth of the pavement layer is 26 cm in the NW corner not 75 cm.
This does clear up the problem I think :
Dorner and Petrie measured the same thing
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Hi Jacob,
You are welcome to contribute at any time !
Graham
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Kanga : "Given the slope of the upper part as 14:15"
I agree that the diagram may be wrong (t is not Dorner's by the way)
I suppose the problem is that the sides are not one slope but are slighly convex !
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Ancient Egypt
Mark: "There is nothing in the corners of the Bent Pyramid that is 0.75 metres higher other than a projection from the inner structure which appears to be meaningless
Is not the 75mm level the bottom edge of the casing blocks along the sides and the zero level is the bottom edge of the casing blocks at the corners ?
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Another curious measurement is their height of the bend.
Both Dorner and Petrie state it is 90 cubits.
But Dorner shows it from the lower 362c base, while Petrie states that he triangulated it using the north and east side edges of the casing stones.
Petrie gives the horizontal distance of the bend from these edges as 63c
This same 63c was used by Dorner but from the lower 362 base corne
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
We see in Dorner's diagram 4 that he measured from the extended casing stone edges so it is 362c
When he measured at the level of the side casing stone edges and the white pavement 75cm higher then it was 360c
So which is the real width ?!
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
I think that both Dorner's and Petrie's diagrams need a more careful scrutiny.
In Dorner's you will see that the stones called sockel (numbers 4 and 9) are in place at the corners AND along the side.
All the casing stones go down to the bottom of the sockel.
The diagram is fairly clear on this as the dotted lines are continued.
So Dorner measured the bottom of the casing
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Just to add to the above point, Petrie wrote :
"The south pyramid, according to this survey, was originally of the following size upon its pavement surface :- Mean 7459"
Emphasis on the word 'upon'. The casing does not sit UPON the white pavement, but upon the sloped base stones.
7459" = 361.7 cubits using the usual 20.62 inches per cubit.
Interestingly, Petri
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Ancient Egypt
Petrie's drawing of a pyramid edge near the NW corner showed the casing stones going down to and resting on a bottom socket, which had a sloping upper face. (red letters are mine)
He wrote :
"The pyramid was therefore based on a horizontal pavement, the edge blocks of which were turned upward at a slope of 5 deg or 10 deg all round, to bed the sloping casing upon; while at the
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Ancient Egypt
Perhaps Alex can provide diagrams 4 and 5 ?
Is the distance from the top of the pavement to the bottom of the pavement 10 palms according to Dorner ?
I thought Petrie reported that the angle of the faced blocks continued on down below the pavement ?
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Ancient Egypt
The image worked fine for me.
Many thanks Alex.
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Ancient Egypt
Hi Alex,
Are you able to post here Dorner's diagrams 1, 4 and 5 to better understand his 'Estrich mit weisser Deckschicht'
Graham
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Yes we really need to see the Dorner document which L Cooper had. Last year you and he wrote :
robin cook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So to summarise, Dorner establishes two base
> levels - one the base of some inner construction,
> and the one important here, the top of the
> pavement? For this latter Dorner gives a figure
> near to 36
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Hi Chris
quote : "The angle of incline for the lower part of the ‘Bent’ pyramid (about 54.77°) is close to sqd 5 (54.46°), but why did they choose this particular angle and why a less steep angle for the top part"
In the case of the Great Pyramid we know the angles of the shafts may have been chosen mathematically but they lined up fairly closely to the star groups.
This would
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Ancient Egypt
Robin : "Dorner's figure for the base is very similar (showing that he and Petrie were measuring the same thing) - his figure is 189.61 metres giving a cubit of 0.52378 metres.
So I conclude that the base of the Bent was intended as 362 cubits."
I am surprised that you are persisting with 362 cubits after all the discussions and links given by Hermione.
Even Dorner accepts
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Hi Mark,
Are you able to add diagrams to your posts ? I often have difficulty visualizing your ideas.
One way to do that is to save your diagram as a .jpg or other format, and upload it to your Flickr account (which is free).
Flickr will provide a url link of your diagram to add to your text. Several image sizes are offered.
Graham
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
Mark : "Therefore the first part of my proposition is substantiated by modern survey data.
Petrie estimated the distance as approximately 6702 feet or 2043 metres,
so I think Petrie would have been pleased he was so close to reality."
Which modern survey data are your referring to ?
I don't think that Google Earth measurements from the map are accurate enough.
Better to
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Hi Chris,
I like your theory and remember looking at it many years ago.
The approximate matching of the slopes of the pyramids at Dahshur is intriguing.
It leaves a problem with Khafre's date.
I note your comment that Djedefre might have taken over an early dynastic tomb.
But that would have meant that the 45 degrees to Khufu's pyramid was fortuitous !
Graham
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Ancient Egypt
Hi Waggy,
In your report you mentioned some doubts about the enclosure around the Red Pyramid.
Stadelman does not mention the west side space being wider but shows three sides the same.
The east side was wider to accommodate the temples.
He found that the Red pyramid once had an enclosure that was 30 cubits away from the pyramid.
Here is his scale drawing from “Pyramiden und Nekropole d
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GChase
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Ancient Egypt
As you know it is possible to correlate unrelated changes.
The top graph - the size of the pyramid - is obviously to do with 'fashion' or economic conditions.
The second graph shows the precession effect which is just the passing of time.
The two graphs may not be related.
Your own chart has a less that perfect curve for size by including more pyramids !
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Ancient Egypt
Reading again Glen Dash's paper "Simultaneous Transit and Pyramid Alignments: Were the Egyptians Errors in Their Stars or in Themselves?"
I cannot see any argument that weakens Spence's Simultaneous Transit Theory.
The best point is the lack of reliability of the pyramid side alignment data.
He writes with an assumption that the AE were attempting to locate the exact c
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Ancient Egypt
"The final portion of KCN appears to have a seked of 11½ palms (31.3°), and points to the upper culmination of Thuban in 2552 BCE
I think you can't just pick and choose which part of the shaft you like to match your dates.
The overall angle of the shaft had a slope of 7 on 11.
If the final portion was slightly different from this, it was to bring the shaft out at the required level
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Ancient Egypt