Which was better than facing the Skraelings.Remember the Vinland colony was *abandoned*. If there's no record of Greenlanders returning to Iceland then the poor things did die out.
by
Roxana Cooper
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Ancient History
Heaven - I hope. They died out. According to the sagas the vinland colony didn't last long so I would guess if Greenlanders went anywhere in this life it was back to Iceland.
by
Roxana Cooper
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Ancient History
The Vikings are known to have visited the Americas before Columbus is it possible that some of the returning settlers from Vinland brought an unwanted souvenir with them?
by
Roxana Cooper
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Ancient History
A miracle. The parting of a sea to allow an escape. A perfect storm of mythology demonstrating God's favor for the Israelites.
This is why i have held that written and word of mouth mythology is a valid source of real history.
1. Is the story possible? Until serious computer modeling definitely not. And even with it years of cut and try to make it work. And more important along
by
donald r raab
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Ancient History
Cicley.
Like the Vinland map and Valsequillo/Callico/pedra Furada and Hobbit, the shroud represents a POSSIIBLE true anomaly that shouldn't be. Whichever way the evidence finally (not in my lifetime) points somebody is goin to be extremely unhappy. Whole belief and knowledge systems have been built around these anomalies NON existence or hoaxes or frauds. They in themselves if valid ar
by
donald r raab
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Laboratory
Abstract
Since Yale University announced its discovery in 1965, the
Vinland Map has been subject to much discussion concerning
its authenticity. This includes also whether or not
it has been bound together with the copies of Speculum
Historiale and the Tartar Relations from the first half of the
15th century and if the Tartar Relations has originally been
bound together with the Speculum H
by
Hermione
-
Humanities
You could add to your list Australian Aborigines reaching Australia with a log raft.
The biggest difference between military and commercial rigging I've noticed was manpower staffing.
A 150 foot Ship of the Line might have 150 crewmen just to climb the rigging and reef the sails.
A 150 foot merchantman might have a crew of 18.
So the rigging needed to be designed so far fewer han
by
Jammer
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Ancient History
Roxana Cooper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But Donald, we KNOW from archaeological remains
> that the Vikings made it to North America before
> Columbus. The Vineland map is of course not Norse
> - as the Vikings didn't make maps - if genuine it
> could possibly be based on accounts from the
> Vikings.
>
> So what?
R
by
Frank Hipper
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Ancient History
But Donald, we KNOW from archaeological remains that the Vikings made it to North America before Columbus. The Vineland map is of course not Norse - as the Vikings didn't make maps - if genuine it could possibly be based on accounts from the Vikings.
So what?
by
Roxana Cooper
-
Ancient History
There have been many discussions here about sailing capabilities. Especially coastal or river sailing vs open sea sailing. Implicit in these discussions is the idea that serious and sustained open sea contact was impossible before Columbus. This is also the center of the conroversy about the Vinland map. The map becomes impossible if sailing capability was non existent before Columbus.To draw
by
donald r raab
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Ancient History
Frank Hipper,
Again, we are talking at cross purposes, and I believe saying the same thing.
I have actually sailed full square rigged ships. On a 4 master the masts are close enough, and the cross beams are long enough; that adjusting the sails greater than 25 degrees hits the rigging for the next masts sails. That's why the later square riggers were also outfitted with stay-sails on
by
Jammer
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Ancient History
Jammer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two different "Square Rigged" though...
>
> The classical European had limited traverse
> (particularly on their military vessels), perhaps
> 25% max. The single masted Phoenician version
> could swivel a full 90 degrees, and drop one end
> of the cross piece to become lateen rigged at
by
Frank Hipper
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Ancient History
While only a recreation note the "square sail" used "lateen style" and actually functioning as such.
Jammer
by
Jammer
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Ancient History
Have you got pictures or drawings that show the operations. Fascinating. And the Vikings plied the North Atlantic at will. Although seeing first hand a replica vessel in the Gulf of St. lawrence you would never get me aboard .
by
donald r raab
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Ancient History
Two different "Square Rigged" though...
The classical European had limited traverse (particularly on their military vessels), perhaps 25% max. The single masted Phoenician version could swivel a full 90 degrees, and drop one end of the cross piece to become lateen rigged at will.
As did the Viking Longboats, etc. Actually it's a very flexible sailing design.
Jammer
by
Jammer
-
Ancient History
Jammer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Per European square sail technology you are 100%
> correct,
>
> The fore and aft rigged ships of the near orient,
> going back to the Phonecians, could sail very
> close to the wind.
>
> It was a few more centuries before the Europeans
> slapped foreheads and went "duh!"
>
by
Frank Hipper
-
Ancient History
Not about Columbus. About a map that may change the entire vioew of Columbus and those before.
many years ago at the onset of the space age a commentator remarked that the first moon landing was an experiment into the unknown. All those after and those to come are a transportation exercise.
The same applies to Columbus. if he was truly first and unique it was a grand experiment. oth
by
donald r raab
-
Ancient History
Per European square sail technology you are 100% correct,
The fore and aft rigged ships of the near orient, going back to the Phonecians, could sail very close to the wind.
It was a few more centuries before the Europeans slapped foreheads and went "duh!"
Jammer
by
Jammer
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Ancient History
Did you see the Nova program on it? . Also included is the basic discussion (much less intense than the recent articles in _Archaemotry_)
of the problems of ink, wormholes, etc.:
by
Doug Weller
-
Ancient History
donald r raab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are talking about European sailing technology.
> Other places solved those problems much earlier.
That is the topic of this section of the thread. Remember, Columbus?
>
> Your other point is right on the mark. These
> boats were small. A few years ago I saw the
> replica Nina tied up
by
bernard
-
Ancient History
You are talking about European sailing technology. Other places solved those problems much earlier.
Your other point is right on the mark. These boats were small. A few years ago I saw the replica Nina tied up along side the carrier Intrepid. I would never have gotten in one.
by
donald r raab
-
Ancient History
It's not a question of MY sailing. It has to do with the state of technology at the time. You can't use modern techniques. As I stated originally, the winds below the Bulge of Africa blow constantly to the South. This is why before the 15th century Cape Bojador was the furtherest down the African coast that was explored. The sails were not designed to tack. As the following states-- the
by
bernard
-
Ancient History
Bernard,
how much have you sailed? True sailing has to include techniques for up wind sailing as well (called tacking). If you wait for the winds to shift you'll be an archeological artifact.
by
donald r raab
-
Ancient History
Doug,
Apparently they have a secure 14C date on the parchment and the titanium dioxide in the ink could have come from sand used to dry the ink and the worm holes match with the rest of the book it was bound in. Now I know nothing about analyzing old documents, but what else can be analyzed to determine if it is a fake?
by
Allan Shumaker
-
Ancient History
A comment about Larsen from someone who was at the conference: "he did not claim that the map was definitely genuine. Instead, he said that his research - and he pointed to the need for further analysis - had not found any evidence that the map was a fake. He did not say that the presence of anatase titanium dioxide could not be consistent with a recent origin. Rather, he suggested a possibl
by
Doug Weller
-
Ancient History
The problem was never sailing down to Africa it was returning to Europe. what the Portuguese discovered was how to sail out into the Atlantic to catch winds that allowed them to return after the went south of Cape Verde. The complete circumnavigation was done by Magellan.
Bernard
by
bernard
-
Ancient History
Hans,
The Portuguese sailed around Africa. they did not even need to venture far off shore to make it all the way to Africa. replentishment was done at each stop.
by
donald r raab
-
Ancient History
Columbus believed in a calculation of the Earth's diameter that would have brought the shores of Asia to approximately where he ran into the Americas. He was sailing for Asia and until his death he thought he'd found it.
One of the reasons Columbus had so much trouble getting support of the various governments is that others knew what the actual size of the earth was. With no America
by
Hans
-
Ancient History
Or somebody used genuinely old paper - which I understand can and is done.
by
Roxana Cooper
-
Ancient History
Wilbur's flights at Le Mans, France in August 8, 1908 - where like L'Anse aux Meadows. This is where he effortless flew and did maneuvers the Europeans were completely unable to do at the time. Any doubts about the Wrights ability to fly was erased.
But I digress....
by
Hans
-
Ancient History