Katherine Reece Wrote:
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> I've rather lost track on this thread... did they
> come up with any Mesoamericanists who supported
> their claim? I better add, that when I say
> support their claim, I mean an article in a peer
> reviewed journal.
Despite reports of acoustic phenomena at the following sites:
Carac
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WVK
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Ancient History
Not that I am aware of, however the questions remain:
"The acoustical phenomenon observed at an ancient temple in the Great Ball Court at Chichen Itza was described as ''little short of amazing--an ancient whispering gallery'' by Silvanus G. Morley, leader of the Carnegie Institute's archaeological team that excavated and restored these structures in the 1920s. Si
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WVK
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Ancient History
More on Edzna acoustics:
One possible meaning of Edzna "House of echos"
"loud noises produced on the east or West side of the mail plaza--- are in fact echoed"
"The Acropolis provides for a magnificent acoustic phenomenon. If you shout, the sound waves will turn into a near roar and resound throughout the Mayan city"
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WVK
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Ancient History
Hermione Wrote:
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"and also here."
From your second link:
Edzna
"One interesting thing to note is that the acoustics of the place are such that from the top of the palace you can here some one talking with a normal voice from the other side of the site, well over 750 yards away.
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WVK
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Hermione Wrote:
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> David,
> Do you have the names of the particular
> mesoamerican archaeologists who supported Wayne
> Van Kirk’s theories?
Here's one who posted on Aztlan in 1995:
From: "Paul E. Pettennude"
Subject: Acoustics in Maya Sites
Sam, I read your posting regarding your conversations with
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WVK
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Ancient History
"The past comes down to us in silence—long abandoned
temples, city mounds, small farming villages,
often mere scatters of stone tools or pot fragments.
We often forget that these places were once alive
with people—shrines and palaces adorned with
bright colors, chants, dances, drumming, and all
kinds of sounds. Many of the world’s most famous
archaeological sites had potent acoustics,
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WVK
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Ancient History
Byrd Wrote:
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I would think that
> if this was significant, we'd find the precise
> setup at other large cities, including Tula.
I don't know about precise setups but if acoustical phenomena were intentional then, I agree, you would expect it in other large cities. And, in fact, you do:
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WVK
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Ancient History
That babble was the result of a quick Google search, apparently a poor selection. The point is we have two large Kukulcan columns topped with rattles. A handclap produces a quetzal-like chirp and a rattlesnake like sound. I will not attempt to link the quetzal chirp to Kukulcan but the rattles are there for all to see (and hear).
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WVK
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Ancient History
OK, Do the feather-serpent columns have rattlesnake tails?
"The wooden entrance lintels were supported by the rattlesnake tails of a pair of feather-serpent columns"
Legends of the plumed serpent: biography of a Mexican god By Neil Baldwin
"The feathered-serpent columns with rattlesnake tails frame the entrance..."
Star gods of the Maya: astronomy in art, folklore
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WVK
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Ancient History
Jammer Wrote:
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> Which means there is acoustics; and there is
> proving INTENT...
> the existence of one in no way validates the
> other... >
> Jammer
Lets take the Temple of the Warrior in CI. We have 2 large Kukulcan statues on top with the rattles being the highest part of the structure.
To the Maya
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WVK
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Ancient History
Byrd Wrote:
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> WVK Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But in how many places do the echos sound
> totally
> > different from the impulse
> > sound as they do in Chichen Itza?
>
> Lots and lots of places. It depends on the shape
> of the space and the mate
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WVK
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Ancient History
Byrd Wrote:
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> You can get echoes anywhere if you try.
But in how many places do the echos sound totally different from the impulse
sound as they do in Chichen Itza? One sounds like a quetzal, one sounds like a rattlesnake.
Do not the quetzal* and the rattlesnake** have fundamental significant meaning to the Maya?
What are the odds
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WVK
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Ancient History
Byrd Wrote:
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> We don't see this, nor do we see (as with Tibetan Buddhists or perhaps
> European monks) a certain insistence on types of sound used in worship.
Again, David Lubman:
HOW CHURCH ACOUSTICS INFLUENCED WESTERN ARCHITECTURE AND LITURGY
Acoustical communication has been a vital element in the simultaneous ev
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WVK
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Ancient History
I would bet the these stairs in Tula would chirp even in their ruined condition:
"Distinctive Toltec features here include terraced pyramids, colonnaded buildings, and relief sculptures, including the characteristic chacmools, reclining figures that may have been Avatars of the rain god, Tlaloc. The colonades of Tula supported roofs of wood and adobe that covered airy halls. There are t
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WVK
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Ancient History
From Lubman's website:
Letter to the Editor of Science News magazine re the story "Singing Stairs"
(Science news, Vol. 155, Jan 16 1999, pp 44-45)
by David Lubman
Archaeologist Karl A. Taube would have me explain why the Maya would have created the chirped echo at the temple of Kukulkan (SN:1/16/99, p.44). He and art historian Samuel Y. Edgerton say I have overstated the
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WVK
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Ancient History
"The quetzal was not a "messenger from the gods"-- the "diving behavior " is purely Lubman's idea"
"During spring the male performs flight displays, flying above the canopy and then ascending while vocalizing (Skutch 1944)."
"During courtship, the males will perform spiraling skyward flights, then dive back to the canopy"
"
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WVK
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Ancient History
"I'd add that the conditions under which we see the temples are NOT the ones that existed when they were in use."
Would the sound volume have continued to "become stronger and clearer" if they had completed the temple rebuilds?
"This transmission of sound, as yet unexplained, has been discussed by architects and archaeologists... Most of them used to consider i
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WVK
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Ancient History
I was unaware that the Great Ballcourt had any special acoustics when I experienced the "hallucinatory disembodied voices" Lubman refers to. It sounded like two people having a conversation right next to me yet there was nobody anywhere near. Magical, strange (and the reason I have been pestering the Mesoamericanists for all these years!) Based on the conversation I believe the voices w
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WVK
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Ancient History
I have had a conversation with one who is open to the idea. Rumor has it that INAH is interested.
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WVK
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David Lubman's explanation for the relationship of sound to monument:
"Acoustical Insights and Solutions for Archaeological Mysteries at Chichen Itza
Recent findings at Chichen Itza, Mexico suggest that its ancient builders were skilled theatrical sound designers who engineered sound for mind manipulation. Sound effects discovered so far seem uniquely appropriate for each monumen
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WVK
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Ancient History
Has a Speeding Neutrino Really Overturned Einstein?
"In the 1930s the Nazi Party criticized Einstein's theory, publishing a book called "100 Authorities Denounce Relativity." Einstein later quipped that you don't need 100 famous intellectuals to disprove his theory. All you need is one simple fact.'
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WVK
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Laboratory
"If a Mesoamericanist *knows* that there was no special relationship to that chirp then why would he want to be bothered?"
Agree 100%, but that was not on the list of objections to intentional acoustics that were summarized and presented as the opinion of the moderators from above mentioned listserve.
I would be happy to send you those details privately.
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WVK
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Ancient History
I don't think so. Mesoamericanists treat this topic as if radioactive. Why do I say that? Lubman contacted me back in 1998 because of:
He had come up with:
.
I suggested that he send it to the moderated listserve "for all persons interested in Pre-Columbian cultures, whether amateurs or professionals" (Back in 1996 I was allowed to post the "Mayan Ruins and Unexplain
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WVK
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Ancient History
David Lubman's "An archaeological study of chirped echo from the Mayan pyramid
of Kukulkan at Chichen Itza"
has been discussed on a certain moderated listserve for "all persons interested in Pre-Columbian cultures, whether amateurs or professionals" since 1998.
From Lubman's website:
"A Mayan glyph from the Dresden Codex makes the connection between the
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WVK
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Ancient History
For some reason upside down is the way I have it. I can rotate it using Adobe.
I also have it in .htm but that comes out scrambled for me?
Wvk
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WVK
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Ancient History
From above post by Bernard
"Others have dealt with the changed acoustics due to modern reconstructions and the lack of the original plaster coating on the buildings."
Bernard
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WVK
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Ancient History
"Others have dealt with the changed acoustics due to modern reconstructions and the lack of the original plaster coating on the buildings. "
One way to settle this would be to plaster and paint one side of El Castillo. It would make a great National Geo special, attract tourism ($) be good for archaeology ($) and would be science.
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Ancient History
"Too steep for people" is my characterization. Unlike a pyramid the steps at Ek Balam are
not a necessary part of a geometric design. Proof- no, evidence-yes. I sent you the picture FYI
WVK
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WVK
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Ancient History