khazar-khum wrote:

> Which you have not even begun to prove.
>
> Your background is immaterial. All that matters is your evidence, which currently is very weak.

Well I guess/suppose that I have to agree/accept that I don't have a tremendous overwhelming mass enough of evidences (like times of revolutions of say Wegener, etc), but I don't think that some of the evidences I have are weak/bad &/or not archaeological. (No proof yet that Sekhemhet can't be Joseph either.)

I gave a list of upto 28 evidences for Joseph being in 3rd-4th dyn, a few of which maybe considered archaeological/convincing and not just "very weak/speculation/bad" evidences:

Sekhemhet seems to match joe (14-17 pts incl names, store rooms)
Potiphera seems to match rahotep (or some other possibilities)
Bent pyramid may relate to 7 yrs plenty & 7 yrs famine
Sahel/Philae account matches Joseph story
Masoudi's Surid story some matches with Genesis &/or Sahel accts
Grain storage bins (step pyr) and store magazines (buried pyr)
Models granaries in Old Kdm tombs
Unas famine scenes
Jose's 110 yrs connected with egyptian 110 years perfect old age
Centenarians then
Ramses found at 4th dyn site
Philitis of 4th dyn maybe israel
Fits with Abe in 1st dyn
Imhoteps title(s) almost same as joseph's
Possible serach corrsepondence with then
70 days ritual evidence for then
The similar sequences of ...
Global atmosphere 4th dyn
Feudal period
United kingdom at time
Is early in egypt history like jose early bible
The amount of our evidences
Agrees with some other researchers evidences/placements
Epic of gilgamesh correspondence with joseph story
Goshen correspondence (same place/time)
Possible asenath correspondences then
Possible potiphar's wife corespondences then
Possible potiphar correspondences then.
(Excluding some others not incl here/now.)

In/for the Sekhemhet one, I gave a list of upto 14-17 correspondences between Joseph and Sekhemhet:

sekhemhet/djoser(-)ty-ankh ~ joseph/zaphenath-paneah *
powerful-body ~ all-comely?
store chambers ~ storehouses/granaries
gold necklace ~ gold chain
htp-ren[...]_nebty ~ potiphar's wife, potiphar &/or potiphera
7 steps ~ 7 years
6/7 years ~ 7 years
imhotep graffiti ~ Wyatt's correspondences with imhotep.
unfinished pyr ~ 2 sons or jacob came in 2nd yr or saw 3 gens?
unknown/new "pharaoh" (horus, crown, pyr) ~ highest except pharaoh (& perhaps compare Bata & Anpu)?
ramp ~ chariot?
72 degrees slope ~ 70 days ritual, 70 souls came with Israel
sen-nebty (or djeseretnebti?) ~ asenath
buried pyr related to zoser's ~ joseph story related to zoser story.
[120/132 ~ (?110 of Joseph &/or) 130 of Surid.]
[fennel branch ~ hyssop branch of Moses?]
[sekhemhet after neterihet ~ rahotep (potiphera) after imhotep]

* zaphenath [zafenath] ~
[szefhemhet] sekhemkhet/Sekhemhet/"Szehemhet"/Sekhemket
(In our proposed equation the hebrew retains the f & not the h, the egyptian has the h & not the f, rather than an illusory ph/ch interchange? Compare Sefkhet, Khent/Fent.)
(The meaning of Sekhemhet is known, but the meaning of Zaphenath-Paneah is not necessarily/definately known.)


>> What does archeology say? What are these other 'evidences/reasons'?

(Who &/or) what do you mean by (and/or accept as) "archaeology"? (Synchronisms/calibration? carbon dating? pottery? documents? sothaic/siriadic? ...?)

What (more) archaeological evidence/proof (than me) do orthodox have for 3100 bc date of Menes (&/or date of Zoser-Sneferu)?

My evidences for Menes (between 2500-2224-)2000 bc includes:
- orthodox has no definate proof (archaeological or other) that Menes/1st dyn was "3100 bc".
- great pyramid date between 10000bc to 2??? bc.*
- 1st dyn dates to age of Taurus (Narmer, Kakam, Apis) [4000]-[2000] bc.*
- Sothiac/Siriadic calendar introduced between 4241 to 2871 bc.*
- tacitus said only 4 appearances of phoenix in egypt history.
- josephus dating of menes [1300?]years before Solomon.
- bible implies Egyptian must come after Flood (and Babel); and Egyptian implies that (dyking of) Ptah and/or Menes come after Flood and 10 patriarchs or 350 yrs, etc.
- orthodox egyptology says they have no definate (Sothaic/Siriadic etc) date (or length) for Old Kingdom (and that the 1st intermediate period is a lacuna.)
- Menes date has varied between 5869 bc to 2224 bc,* (and that the date was awhile ago so suddenly reduced (from 3400 to 3000) by "400 years closer to present" and statements that OK/AE dates still maybe upto a few hundred years out and the tendency is to revise dates down.)
- evidence that famine and plague of Abraham was in 1st dynasty (Ata/Uenephes/Semti/Semerhet).
- evidence that Joseph was in 3rd-4th dynasty (Zoser/Surid/Sekhemhet/Sneferu).
- that Heroddotus dates 12th dynasty 900 years before [Amasis2].
- egyptian chronology is based on (relative dating and) sothaic dates, which as you said (some point out it) is somewhat problematic. [It is even vaguely possible that the sothaic date for sesostris is connected to sesor-tosis/surid?]
- and others I can't list here and now.
[Perhaps 3000 bc was to make a nice scheme of 3000 yrs, 300 kings, 30 dyns, 3 kingdoms?]
* the only common date is the 2000s (2900-2000 bc).

>> And what is this evidence?

Evidence Jose in 3rd-4th dyn:
I have already posted lots of my 28 (&/or 14-17) evidences for joseph (listed above) in the reply that sam called "you go on and on" and hermione said was confusing/confused and she couldn't make sense of it; (and also I already gave the link to my rough article of evidences in first post of thread.)

Evidence(s) Moses was in 12th dynasty:
The evidences for Moses in 12th are mine, Rohl's, Velikovsky's, Mavor's, etc.
Some include:
- Herodotus dates Moeris 900 years before [Amasis], (and Atlantis account dates Atlantis 900 years before Amasis.)
- Herodotus says the chariots were lost from Egypt during Sesostris (Senusert) reign.
- baby coffins found at [Kahun or Lahun?]
- [Lahun or Kahun] suddenly abandoned.
- brick buildings/pyramids esp common in (fip -) mid kdm.
- pectoral of princess shows possibly hebrew slaves.
- 12 springs and 70 palms at Elim found mentioned in 11th dyn travel manuscript.
- tekenen maybe miskenoth/treasure-cities?
- the haq of the land of abushar (aamu of shut) maybe og of bashan (amorite)?
- pharaoh ...'s mummy not found.
- 12th dyn, 12 yrs ; 12/10 plagues, 12/10 commandments, [and 12 kings scheria/10 kings atlantis, atlantis date divided by 10 (not 12) months, 12 pillars hercule, 12/10 labours hercules, etc, possibly indicating time of change from 10 to 12 months?]
- (tawi-)thom maybe amuntimaeus. palmanothes maybe amenemhat (like phamenoph is amenophis).
- flood dated 300 years after Surid.
- maybe El-Arish inscription?
- Amarna "amelut sagaz Mesh" maybe verifies Moses, meaning can't he be later than 18th dyn, (but could be upto few hundred years earlier).
- the story of Se-osiris versus Ethiopian....
- others can't list here/now. (See also my blog artciles on 'Egyptian & Bibical chronolgy', on 'Moses', etc.)

Evidence Abraham in 1st dynasty:
I think I've already said that it is that the famine and plague of Abraham seem to be same as famine and plague/disaster(s) of Uenephes/Ata/Semti/Semenptah/Semerkhet (as described in Bey, Clayton, Bristowe, Manetho, etc).
(In addition/also, the evidences I've already given for Menes being the low/short date 2224. Plus Josephus saying "Abraham" brought Egytpians some culture, and his date for Menes. (Can also add Herodotus on origins of Egyptian circumcision.)
Plus fits with Jose in 3rd-4th. And also fits possible match of Sodom or Shechem and terror of Jacob with 2nd and 3rd dynasty ruler's reigns events. The whole chronology is given in my Egyptian and Biblical chronology article at [2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com] .)


>> Which means what, exactly? An actual bird or something else?

I assume it means that there were only 4 periods of 500 years before christ of ancient Egyptian dynastic history, (though some other sources have different amount of years for phoenix).


>> They? Who is 'they'?

"They" was orthodox Egyptology as summarised in Clayton's chronicle.


>> Sothic dating has always been somewhat problematical; it's why dates in AE are calibrated with those of other kingdoms of the era.

I understood that they (initiallly if not still?) based other middle east chronologys on Egyptian?

How can they calibrate it if the chronologies of other cultures like Sumerian are also problematic? [Eg the Venus tablets, Naramsin date, etc.]
(Also, they claim calibration makes carbon dating accurate but it is not (or may not be) necessarily so.)


> Yes it is your fault, and yes it is that bad.
>
>There's a reason for methodological standards when discussing history, and that reason is to avoid confusion. Something presented outside the norms is difficult to follow or evaluate. Standards also level the playing field; they don't care about your background, only how you present the data.

Standards, norms and so-called "level playing fields" can be wrong/excuses /unfair/favoritism /barriers /legalistic/elitist /controling/limiting.
No one [here locally] ever helps, constructive, compliements, mentoring, sees potential, encourages, collaboration, cares, agrees, rewards, understands, etc.
Its always just/only/all my fault/problem/badness; "high standards", criticism, hyper-individualism, wrong forum, "level playing field", work, i'm "unprofessional/bad" & they're "professional/good", etc.
(By background I really meant not only background but upto/including present circumstances/situation.)

In other words they don't want to or have to evaluate/care about a thesis/evidence/presentation different to their orthodox position unless it presents (well) such an overwhelming mass of indisputable evidence that it effects a change.


my blog is at 2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com