> That's ID's Achilles Heel - it's proponents may PRETEND that they are not saying that
> God is the intelligence but, eventually, each designer needs to be designed until
> we get back to a strangely familiar American Fundamentalist Christian version of the
> ultimate designer....

No way! This is a boggus argument from the DE fundamentalist who just want to trap the argument into a circular logic! The designers of the designers of the designers of the designers of the ... and so on, in an infinite loop!!!

What they cannot "grasp" is the clear evidence that Nature already shows us in terms of its various cycles. So, at any point in time there is a before and after, but in frequency, those cycles can be infinite since they will just repeat themselves over and over again, as long there is a source of energy. Meaning that it is the flow or the transfer of energy between the various cycles what becomes important in terms of whom or what designed whom or what...

but, since frequencies (vibration) can be organized in higher (more bandwidth) to lower frequencies, the only real issue is a mathematical description of the two frequency extremes which is infinite vibration and no vibration at all! No vibration at all, could be very simply viewed as a frozen static state of perfection and infinite vibration is what is more difficult to visualize since it would require no space at all (zero wavelength) or the true definition of a point source...

In summary, as long as there is such a point source of energy, infinite becomes defined and as such, the undefined infinite vicious loops can be broken...

-wirelessguru1