Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 20, 2024, 4:10 pm UTC    
November 30, 2007 09:15PM
MJ Thomas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I, along with tens of millions of other people,
> find it difficult, if not impossible, to imagine
> Nature not having purpose.
> If Nature has purpose, then it is somehow
> intelligent.

Technically, natural selection is driven by purpose, but by the purposes of the individual rather than that of some supreme being. The purpose of any bacterium is to survive and reproduce. The purpose of any mammal is pretty much the same. Higher intelligence is just purpose of an advanced form, and to the extent that it exists only in humans, it is anthropic. Our intelligence is little more than the manifestation of an advance brain. More primitive brains such as the ganglia structure of a fly or the primitive memory of a fish do in fact exist and their manifestations also enable some kind of purpose, but we don't consider these things as embodying "intelligence". Hence, intelligence or purpose are both fundamental to natural selection.

You say that if nature has purpose than it has intelligence. You do realise thiestic evolutionists would probably agree with this statement, but disagree with the mechanism, since, in their view, evolution without divine intervention is in fact an intelligent design leading to some divine purpose. Being an agnostic, i would say the jury is still out, but there's no need to extrapolate back from divine purpose to divine intervention in evolution.

> I say again, I am quietly convinced that Evolution
> is a scientific fact, but I am not at all
> convinced (through lack of comprehension) that
> Natural Selection is the sole means by which it
> happens – lurking in there somewhere is an
> Intelligent force.

This is where intelligent design lacks consistency. For many, evolution assisted at any stage by a higher intelligence is not biological evolution at all. If you follow the tenets of the ID movement, you will find that ID is fundamentally against evolution. Behe's irreducible complexity initially seemed to target only primitive cellular structures, but one wonders, given the principle itself, why his theory doesn't apply to all of evolutionary biology. Or better yet, why is evolution by natural selection sufficient in higher organisms but not in simple cellular organisms. Later testimonies seem to confirm suspicions that ID is simply repackaged creationism.


Dar



Subject Author Posted

Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Hermione November 25, 2007 12:59PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller November 25, 2007 01:41PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Allan Shumaker November 25, 2007 02:03PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Pete Clarke November 26, 2007 05:31AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper November 25, 2007 06:31PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 27, 2007 06:42PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 27, 2007 11:53PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper November 28, 2007 12:05PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 28, 2007 12:28PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper November 28, 2007 02:05PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

marehart August 10, 2011 01:49AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 28, 2007 12:29PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 29, 2007 05:32AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper November 29, 2007 11:03AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Pete Clarke November 29, 2007 11:06AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 29, 2007 11:46AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 29, 2007 12:23PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 29, 2007 05:33PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard November 29, 2007 09:27PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki November 28, 2007 03:21AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 29, 2007 06:19AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

cicely November 29, 2007 11:10AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 29, 2007 01:59PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper November 29, 2007 03:15PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

cicely November 29, 2007 05:52PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

darkuser November 30, 2007 09:33PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas December 01, 2007 10:01AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Hermione December 01, 2007 10:13AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas December 01, 2007 10:34AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas December 01, 2007 10:12AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki November 29, 2007 02:24PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Pete Clarke November 28, 2007 06:41AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas November 29, 2007 12:46PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

darkuser November 30, 2007 09:15PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper December 01, 2007 11:28AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 01, 2007 01:00PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper December 02, 2007 12:02PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 02, 2007 03:07PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper December 02, 2007 03:58PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 02, 2007 04:36PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 02, 2007 06:20PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper December 03, 2007 10:48AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 03, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 02, 2007 06:19PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Roxana Cooper December 03, 2007 10:50AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 03, 2007 10:11PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 04, 2007 12:26AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 10:00AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 04, 2007 04:27PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 05:01PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 04, 2007 05:09PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 05:53PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 03:01AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 10:10AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 12:44PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 03:14PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 04, 2007 04:31PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 04, 2007 03:04AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 10:21AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 04, 2007 11:42AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 03:19PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 05, 2007 01:41AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 10:09AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 05, 2007 01:34PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 04:07PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 05:32PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 05:53PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 06:07PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 06:28PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 07:19PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 08:08PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 06, 2007 07:40AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 12:59PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 03:04PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 04:12PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 04:37PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 04:57PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 05:29PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 08:09PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 09:39PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

cicely December 04, 2007 10:12PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 10:50PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

cicely December 05, 2007 09:17AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 01:11PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 05, 2007 02:12PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 02:48PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

cicely December 05, 2007 03:06PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 03:14PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 04, 2007 10:33PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 04, 2007 10:53PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 01:04AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 12:09PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 01:08PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 05, 2007 01:33PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 02:08PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 05, 2007 02:47PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 03:00PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 05, 2007 03:10PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 05:05PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 05, 2007 06:04PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 06:54PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 06, 2007 12:09AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 06, 2007 07:56AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 06, 2007 10:53AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 05, 2007 01:35PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 02:47PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 03:56PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 05:25PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 05:40PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 05:59PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 06:41PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 07:13PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Tommi Huhtamaki December 05, 2007 06:20PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 07:03PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 08:55PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 06, 2007 07:53AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Doug Weller December 06, 2007 02:30AM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 03:28PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 05:12PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 05, 2007 05:44PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

Charlie Hatchett December 05, 2007 06:02PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

bernard December 06, 2007 12:04PM

Re: Creation Museum, Kentucky: an update

MJ Thomas December 05, 2007 01:14PM

MJ, I've been thinking.....

cicely December 04, 2007 03:00PM

Panspermia?

Allan Shumaker December 05, 2007 12:24PM

Re: Panspermia?

bernard December 05, 2007 03:14PM

Final Post

Charlie Hatchett December 06, 2007 08:17AM

Life on Earth may have its origins in outer space

Allan Shumaker August 09, 2011 07:56PM

Re: Life on Earth may have its origins in outer space

marehart August 10, 2011 02:17AM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login