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May 7, 2024, 11:59 pm UTC    
July 25, 2002 06:54PM
<HTML>Hopefully this, together with Krupp's previous messages, will put to rest once and for all, for those who are not tunnel-visioned, the ridiculous claim that the New Kingdom Egyptians recognised Leo.

---------------

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your e-mail message dated 25 July 2002.

There is a long tradition of attempts to identify-with inadequate evidence-unknown constellations in other astronomical systems. These attempts are frequently reported at meetings, and occasionally they appear in print. Interpreters typically begin with the premise that constellations we know have counterparts in other systems. In some cases, this is so. Certain asterisms-the Pleiades, Orion's Belt, the Big Dipper (Plough), and a few others-are almost always singled out by everybody. After that, the picture is very muddy. Those who have studied constellations with discipline and a desire to discern genuine fact have understood that "tentative identities" based on loosely-defined configurational relationships have little value. The paper by Donald Etz, published by the _Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt_ in 1997, is one of those exercises in "if
that, then this." It certainly doesn't prove anything, and it really doesn't even argue a strong case.

Etz, for example, says putting the Big Dipper at upper culmination (that business about omicron Ursae Majoris being the tip of the Bull's Tail is overkill) offers "several interesting similarities
with the Senmut displays." This is nothing more than a subjective response. Obviously, Etz believes the arrangment, which doesn't really even depend on upper culmination but just uses that position of the Big Dipper to clarify what piece of sky is under
consideration, offers "several interesting similarities," but these similarities are nothing more than the identifications Etz decides to discuss. He arbitrarily selects, but does not confirm, matches like the
Crouching Lion with Leo and the Man with Upraised Arm with Gemini.

Etz identifies all of his identifications as "tentative," but even that is generous. They involve a series of unverifiable assumptions, not the least of which is the notion that the Egyptian constellations displayed on the Senmut ceiling cover the celestial territory more-or-less circumscribed by Ursa Major, Leo, Gemini, and Auriga. Nothing in Egyptian
texts or other sources of celestial iconography confirms this, or any other
detailed mapping. We simply have no compelling data. In fact, we have no
data. Fundamentally, Etz forwards the argument, "It kind of looks this way
to me so maybe it's right." This is a very shaky basis of support for the kind of conclusion Bauval reaches, especially if Bauval fails to deal effectively with my challenges to his interpretation.

There are scholars, Kurt Locher among them, who have devoted serious
time and energy to the identification of Egyptian constellations. Their method involves thoughtful and detailed analysis of texts for information that can demonstrate the validity of the delineation, star-by star. This is not the approach taken in Etz's study.

Invoking arbitrary judgment about the disposition of constellation figures in New Kingdom tombs and the way they might match the real sky, Etz defines and maps a portion of the sky to conclude, "Thus
there is reason to believe that the Senmut display lion, the Ramesside star clock lion, and the constellation Leo are essentially the same...." On the other hand, I have contrasted the familiar
iconography of the Northern Group in New Kingdom royal tombs with the
depiction on the Ptolemaic Dendera Circular Zodiac to show it is unlikely
the Crouching Lion in New Kingdom tombs is Leo. My analysis relies on no
assumptions, no unproved mapping of archaic Egyptian constellations onto
the stars we know, and no singular and arbitrary applications of spherical
astronomy to the Egyptian sky. Unlike other commentaries, my analysis
accommodates the likelihood the depictions of the entire Northern Group of constellations are not detailed maps of this region of the sky but symbolic
groupings of northern constellations configured with modest concern for
their exact placement with respect to each other.

Apart from validity or error of Etz's identifications, however, it is useful to explore the implications of these identifications in the context of Bauval's use of them. Bauval enlists support from Etz to identify the Crouching Lion in the tombs of Senmut and Sethos I as Leo. Etz's Leo is, however, embedded with a "family" of other constellations he has
identified, and Bauval must accept all of them. If he does not, the basis for the identification of Leo, already compromised by unwarranted
assumptions and subjective, untestable data, is completely unjustified.

Leo's identification by Etz relies on the rest of his identifications, and Etz identifies the Hippopotamus at least partly comprising Auriga. Bauval's interpretation of the Hippopotamus/Bull/Crouching Lion arrangement, however, requires the
Hippopotamus to be Draco, which is very far from Auriga. In fact, the arc Bauval draws from Cygnus through the north ecliptic pole (in Draco's coils), through the north celestial pole (in the vicinity of Draco's tail in the New Kingdom era), through the stars Megrez and Alioth, to Leo has absolutely nothing to do with Auriga and falls nowhere near Auriga.

This is probably a good time to remember why all of this concerns Bauval. His "Orion Mystery" and "Message of the Sphinx" mapping of Giza equates Leo the Lion with the Sphinx. Of course, we don't see any depictions of a sphinx in these celestial maps, just lions. I'm thinking the celestial lions here are victimized on the altar of the Sphinx.

Bauval has, then, accepted one of Etz's identifications (Leo) and contradicted another (Auriga), but Etz's identifications are mutually contingent. This obvious contradiction suggests Bauval selects data that favor his conclusion and ignores data that refute it.

Learning nothing new,

Ed</HTML>
Subject Author Posted

Dr Krupp replies to Etz and Bauval

Mikey Brass July 25, 2002 06:54PM

Oh my....

Anthony July 25, 2002 07:02PM

My &quot;Feeling&quot;

Christopher F. Ash July 25, 2002 08:30PM

Re: Oh my....

Frank D July 26, 2002 04:21AM

Re: Oh my....

John Wall July 26, 2002 04:27AM

Re: Oh my....

Frank D July 26, 2002 04:34AM

Isn't it about time...

John Wall July 26, 2002 04:36AM

Re: Isn't it about time...

Frank D July 26, 2002 05:33AM

Re: Isn't it about time...

John Wall July 26, 2002 05:38AM

Re: Isn't it about time...

Frank D July 26, 2002 06:23AM

Re: WHAT????

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 09:15AM

So Frank was right...

Anthony July 26, 2002 11:11AM

HOW????

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 12:00PM

Re: Like This....

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 12:21PM

Re: Like This....

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 12:51PM

Chris

Anthony July 26, 2002 01:37PM

Re: Chris

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 01:54PM

Furthermore....

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 03:10PM

You still don't get it, do you...

Anthony July 26, 2002 03:17PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

John Wall July 26, 2002 03:50PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

Frank D July 26, 2002 05:39PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 05:49PM

Re: Oh my....

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 06:59AM

Re: Oh my....

Anthony July 26, 2002 07:34AM

Re: Oh my....

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 09:39AM

Re: Oh my....

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 10:32AM

Most of them?

Anthony July 26, 2002 11:05AM

Re: Oh my....

Jeff van Hout July 26, 2002 11:12AM

Re: Oh my....

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 11:49AM

You asked the wrong question...

Anthony July 26, 2002 01:00PM

Re: You asked the wrong question...

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 02:18PM

Well they don't....

Anthony July 26, 2002 03:12PM

Re: Well they don't....

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 04:05PM

Re: Oh my....

Tommi Huhtamaki July 26, 2002 11:35AM

Re: Robert....

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 10:51AM

Re: Robert....

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 11:50AM

Re: Heheh

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 11:55AM

Re: Heheh

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 12:18PM

The Irony

Christopher F. Ash July 25, 2002 08:27PM

and...

Anthony July 25, 2002 08:37PM

Re: The Irony

John Wall July 26, 2002 04:16AM

Re: The Irony

Christopher F. Ash July 26, 2002 08:17AM

Somebody missing the point !

John Wall July 26, 2002 06:05AM

Expectations...

Anthony July 26, 2002 06:10AM

Re: Expectations...

John Wall July 26, 2002 06:12AM

Re: Expectations...

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 07:02AM

Non, mais oui

Anthony July 26, 2002 07:36AM

Re: Expectations...

Duncan July 26, 2002 09:31AM

Re: Somebody missing the point !

Mikey Brass July 26, 2002 06:24AM

Explanation?

Roy Haydon July 26, 2002 11:50AM

Re: Explanation?

Mikey Brass July 26, 2002 12:31PM

Re: Explanation?

Roy Haydon July 26, 2002 02:51PM

Re: Mikey...a question for you

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 09:23AM

Re: Mikey...a question for you

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 09:42AM

Robert ....

Katherine Reece July 26, 2002 09:49AM

Re: Robert ....

Helmut July 26, 2002 07:46PM

Re: Mikey...a question for you

Mikey Brass July 26, 2002 09:47AM

Re: Err...Mikey...

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 10:38AM

Re: Err...Mikey...

Mikey Brass July 26, 2002 12:46PM

Re: Err...Mikey...

Don Holeman July 26, 2002 01:07PM

Re: Don...

Joanne Conman July 26, 2002 07:05PM

In summation... do I understand this right?

Anthony July 26, 2002 10:16AM

Re: EXACTLY Anthony

Mikey Brass July 26, 2002 01:21PM

Re: In summation... do I understand this right?

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 02:24PM

Re: In summation... do I understand this right?

John July 26, 2002 02:33PM

Re: In summation... do I understand this right?

Anthony July 26, 2002 03:49PM

Re: In summation... do I understand this right?

robert Bauval July 26, 2002 04:23PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

R. Avry Wilson July 26, 2002 04:20PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

Mercury Rapids July 26, 2002 04:35PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

Anthony July 26, 2002 07:42PM

Re: You still don't get it, do you...

Mercury Rapids July 27, 2002 10:38PM

Merc...

Ritva July 27, 2002 11:06PM

Re: Merc...

Mercury Rapids July 27, 2002 11:52PM

Re: Merc...

Ritva July 28, 2002 12:04AM



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