bernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >Then you are far more aquainted with
> the
> > subject than I. But I hesitate to let you
> frame
> > the discussion and restrict it to
> epinephrine. Is
> > enough known of brain chemistry to account
> for the
> > biological action of the whole complex
> panalopy of
> > hormones, dopamine, MAO inhibitors? There was
> a
> > documentry I saw some years ago about some
> > southeast Asian customs including eating
> fresh
> > monkey brains as a means of intoxication.
> And no,
> > we are not talking about hallucinogens,
> although
> > you are familiar with the wide spectrum of
> > innovative ways that New World tribes used
> for
> > intoxication; Buffo Marinus, Cactii of
> several
> > species, tobacco, pulque, peyote, barks of
> trees,
> > plants of the wild. Eating the substance
> seems to
> > be the least popular. Maybe a section of
> > hypothalamus was placed between cheek and gum
> to
> > await absorption ala' vitamin b12. Stamina,
> > resistance to altitude sickness and warmth
> are not
> > hallucinogenic, but would be valued. So the
> > method of ingestion may be suspect, but there
> are
> > epidemiological studies that show a link
> between
> > agressiveness, analgesia and even
> psychopathic
> > behaviour (however culturally relative that
> term
> > is). I could test the speculation, but
> Halloween
> > is still six weeks away. ;')
>
> We are getting away from the original proposal.
> What I was trying to stay with was the idea that
> "rage" cannibalism was going on. The original
> proposal was shifted to the idea that the
> cannibals became enraged as a consequence of
> eating their victims, and it was in this context
> that epinephrine was brought up. I showed that
> this is not a feasible hypothesis.

I have a problem because of the papers linking epinephrine levels with aggression and psychopathic behaviour. So because one delivery system isn't feasible, the whole idea is invalid? You didn't mention the use of enemas with a wide variety of the above mentioned intoxicants in the same er, cocktail. We know of the many ways the tribes had of putting stuff in their bodies. We know that coca leaves are chewed with lime to activate the drug.
They were ingenious for the myriad ways to ingest.

>
> The question now shifts to the whole question of
> psychoactive substances. As you list, there are a
> bunch-- particularly in the New World. First,
> let's deal with the question of mode of
> administration. A number of psychoactive
> substances-- psilocin, psylocibin (the Oxacan
> mushrooms), muscarine, muscimol (Amanita muscaria,
> the Siberian mushroom), bufotoxin (the toad
> sweat), hyoscyamine (jimson weed, i.e Datura),
> lysergic acid amides (ololiuhqui, morning glory),
> harmine (ayahuasca) are all active orally.
> Tryptamine (the bark from Virola) like epinephrine
> is rapidly metabolized so that its ingestion is to
> get it directly into the blood stream, either by
> using it as a snuff or applying it in the form of
> an enema; alternatively it ingested together with
> a MOA inhibitor that allows it to take effect.

Yes, although ayahuesca is blown up a fellow tribesman nose from a four foot tube.

>
> We are familiar with the effects of alcohol
> (pulque, and a variety of other fermented
> products) although given the low percentage of
> alcohol present you have to work at getting drunk
> (now this could produce rage ). Although the
> literature mentions tobacco, I don't think that
> nicotine is hallucinogenic per se-- you could get
> hallucinations as a side effect of nicotine
> poisoning since the usual method is to chew and
> swallow a lot of tobacco juice.

Sure. Particularly if nicotine is ingested ritually...that is, sporadically so the bodies tolerance is low.

>
> There are a limited number of neurotransmitters
> involved in hallucinations produced by either
> agonists (substances that replace the normal
> neurotrasmitters: i.e. muscarine (acetyl choline);
> epineprine (nor-epinephrine) or antagonist (blocks
> the normal action): LSD, psylocin (serotonin).
>
> Still nothing that fits "rage cannibalism).
>
> Bernard
>
>
> No, the last paragraph is more of a "deer in the headlights" reaction.
>