<HTML>No matter.
I do think the idea of Indians colonizing the America's is a stretch I'm not comfortable with.
I speculated on a possible location of Indians (the Bahama's-Arawaks) and Tehotihican (structure similarities).
Further investigation may cancel out both of those.
The evidence site for Gavin Menzies is www.1421.tv on the web.
He weaves an interesting story
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>I agree totally.
If Menzies is correct the most intriguing thing to me is why the Chinese pulled in their horns and stopped.
It certainly was a denial of knowledge discovered and the results for China for the next 500 years certainly weren't positive.</HTML>
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>If Menzies is correct the textbooks, etc will be updated - just like after the Viking finds. However, even if he is correct it's clear that - like the Vikings - there was no <i>lasting</I> effect. 1492 is <i>the</i> date that <i>changed</i> things.
John</HTML>
by
John Wall
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Ancient History
<HTML>Mikey,
Are you going to use Gavin Menzies book (1421). He is a great story teller and he may have rewritten the story for the new world. An interesting ALTERNATIVE to the stock names ,dates, places standard text.</HTML>
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
Re: Jim - 21 years ago
<HTML>That is an interesting question.
Particularly so when orthodox theory has us all coming OUT of AFRICA so we are all BLACK.
Oops!! Did I hear PC china breaking in the background.
These posts are really a great vehicle for arguing diffusion and multicultural contact. A sharing of ideas and skill will be right behind. We might even have to merge Middle Eastern ,African, and Egyptia
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML><a href=" Menzies is drumming up publicity for his book. </a>
What I am curious about is this statement:
Menzies says his theory could be vindicated by the discovery of a Chinese body in the Americas pre-dating the European explorers, which will be detailed in his book's U.S. edition.
"It's got Chinese Jade on the throat and up its nostrils and is app
by
AWSX
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Ancient History
<HTML>Katherine,
A BASIC tenet of Orthodox history is the America's are the "NEW WORLD". It is a KEY part of the entire linear thesis of the devekopment of civilization and direction. The amount of ink expended creating and defending the "Columbus first" thesis is beyond measure. It continues even in this post. It is intriguing that a subplot has even entered
by
Donald Raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>From the article:
"But he is virtually unknown in the West, where it is widely considered that Columbus discovered the "New World" first in 1492, although many Scandinavian historians claim the Vikings beat him by nearly 500 years.
"Gavin Menzies, a retired British submarine commander who is bringing out a book on Zhang He next month, says many academics not jus
by
Joanne Conman
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Ancient History
<HTML>>>Zheng He's fleet gradually split up but Mr Menzies said there was incontrovertible evidence that three of the four ships went to Arabia, the Cape of Good Hope, the Caribbean, South America, the South Pacific, Australia and then the west coast of North America.<<
To South Africa??? There is nothing I know of that validates such a claim.</HTML>
by
Mikey Brass
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Ancient History
<HTML>Hi Don
If Gavin Menzies has "the beef" to make his case this will be a classic case of the 'real story' being told.
More accurately, it will be a classic case of the best available story being told, in which case we all win.
For a balanced, apolitical, and IMHO excellent article on this subject, check out the link on my previous post.
Questioning orthodoxy might
by
enki
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Ancient History
<HTML>If Gavin Menzies has "the beef" to make his case this will be a classic case of the "winners" (orthodox) writing history rather than the real story being told.
If the case is made this book will ahve a large effect on the historical story as we know it.
Of course it also can be conjecture without the goods.</HTML>
by
Donald Raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>I have NOT heard of contact in 2500. If there are links aluding to the same I sure would like to see them. Also if you are correct there were three contact periods. The third was in 1421. I am waiting eagerly for the Gavin Menzies book about the same. We will see what kind of evidence he will present.
When I visited Seibal in Guatemala a Mayan guide showed me a round stele dep
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>Damian:
1. You wrote: "Hint: just because modern South Pacific populations are in the South Pacific today, doesn't mean that their anthropological predecessors were in the South Pacific during the time period that's the focus of these paleoanthropological studies."
That's a good point, Damian, but doesn't that raise more problems for the Land Brid
by
Jim S.
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Ancient History
<HTML>Jim S. wrote:
>
> "The first South Americans show a clear resemblance to modern
> South Pacific and African populations, while the first North
> Americans seem to be at an unresolved morphological position
> between modern South Pacific and Europeans. In none of these
> analyses the first Americans show any resemblance
> to…northeast Asians. …Recent
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML>Nessie may be a figment of the imagination but a Viking ship with coffee grounds is a much better development.
The term discovery is used about such developments. Discovery is unique to our culture. As I've posted before the peoples of this planet knew of each other and had contact. They traded ideas and goods. Not everyone had contact with everyone else. There was consis
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>The Vinland map has been and is the cause of irrational agita among mainstream scientists. As soon as the map was announced it was labeled a fake. When the latest study done in the states was completed (real) and announced; the SAME day another study (fake) was announced to deal with it.
It is obvious from these reactions that the mainstream model will be defended to the death an
by
Donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>Chris,
Couldn't agree more. Posted a lot about this topic on you know who's board. I tried to make the point that contact is NOT an either or proposition. That in fact there were many long ranging seafaring societies and A could have linked to B and then to C etc. A trade link would have been established and goods and IDEAS would flow. The Mayans and pre-Incas ranged
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>I agree totally that artifacts are the key.
The Roman head found west of Mexico City found buried in situe dating to about 300 BC.
The Olemca Stone heads that cleariy portray Negroid-African physical influence. Interestingly enough The Olmeca areas seem to pre- date Egypt.
The picture of marble figures in July/August Archaeology magazine which seem to have African characteristics.
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>donald raab wrote:
>
> That being said the two sites off the west coast of
> India are the true stuff of legend.
No. They are the stuff of history. They're part of a set of buildings that start on land and sink off the coast. Big deal. There used to be a mill building in the town where I grew up. It burned down in 1983. Condos went in where the mill building had
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>That being said the two sites off the west coast of India are the true stuff of legend. Even getting mainstream science to entertain the ideas about sunken cities and legend connections is a big job. Not trying to finish the alternative story. Only to get its possible valid points to the table. Your response reminds me of the mainstream reaction to Lanse Meadows. Viking sagas (read th
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>donald raab wrote:
>
> thanks for the links. I certainly don't want to redo
> the wheel. It is appropriate that one waits for the Menzies
> book and see the kinds of evidence he presents. Pictures of
> Chinese Junk wrecks in the caribbean would be clinchers to
> say the least.
Clinchers of what, precisely? If Chinese shipwrecks were found in the Caribbean th
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML>thanks for the links. I certainly don't want to redo the wheel. It is appropriate that one waits for the Menzies book and see the kinds of evidence he presents. Pictures of Chinese Junk wrecks in the caribbean would be clinchers to say the least.</HTML>
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>donald raab wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how to respond to this post. I used
> shamans as that is what we call them. The name does have some
> value added prejudices.
You might be interested in a book that's just been published: <i>The Concept of Shamanism: Uses and Abuses</i>, edited by Henri-Paul Francfort and Roberte N. Hamayon (2001).
> You m
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML>I'm not sure how to respond to this post. I used shamans as that is what we call them. The name does have some value added prejudices. You made my point clearly by staing the woman could not get to the hospital. last I knew a hospital has operating theaters. The larger point I am making is that mainstream seems to diminsh all of the achievements made by other civilizations. I sho
by
donald raab
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Ancient History
<HTML>> "According to his theory, Zheng He sailed around
> the world from March 1421 to October 1423 with a fleet of
> over 100 boats. He believes that the Chinese fleet crossed
> the Indian Ocean, rounded the capes of Africa and South
> America, and crossed the South Pacific before returning to
> China. Along the way, they sailed into the Caribbean and into
> the
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML>Christopher F. Ash wrote:
>
> > > Actually, this is an idea that is gaining increasing
> support
> > > from Academia. Unfortunately, I'm not an authority on the
> > > subject but there is some evidence to support the notion.
> > > Some articles were posted here about this some months ago.
> >
> >
> > See my comments e
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML>Jim S. wrote:
>
>John Wall:
>
> Chinese Admiral Zheng Ho may have gone west, rather than
> east.
What do mean <i>'may'</i> have gone west. I don't think that particular fact's open to question. It's the suggestion that he journeyed eastwards that hasn't been substantiated.
From Felipe Fernandez-Armesto's <i>C
by
Damian Walter
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Ancient History
<HTML><b>The Dangers of Preconceived Conclusions</b>
In this article posted by Stephen, we learn of an amateur researcher who follows a list of maps and letters to make a startling discovery... that the Americas were not only discovered 70 years before Columbus by the Chinese... but these same Chinese sailors also circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan.
Startling
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Hi All,
just been reading an article in the Telegraph (UK), the link is:
though you have to register (its free) to read it.
The basis of the article is a study by an ex-naval officer, Gavin Menzies, who has researched the exploits of a chinese 'treasure fleet'. This fleet of ships sailed between 1421 and 1423, under instructions to explore the world. Mr Menzies is expla
by
lcfc
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Ancient History